And Lord knows, I love pudding. But this is getting a little funny.
A fair number of the places to which I apply for a job don’t believe that I can actually program. My resume shows kernel coding at DRI, application writing at Symantec, systems software at Apple, client/server web work at Thomson and Surya, mobile applications at Sony, but there still seems to be a question of whether or not I can actually program.
Since I have started my job search, I have written a web portal in Python/Turbogears, a data mining application in Python, a small programming exercise in Java, and just yesterday, was asked to write a Ruby on Rails application, preferably with Cold Fusion and calls back to Java via JRuby. Which I am working on right now. I’ve taken tests about CSS and XHTML, and aced them, but been asked if I know plain old HTML.
Here’s the deal. There’s always going to be new technologies. No matter what YOU know, I can pull up a list of equal size of technologies you have never used. But if you know everything on your list, I’m betting you’ll be able to learn mine as well.
Anyway, just venting. And any potential employers, this isn’t directed at you. I know there’s a need to ensure new people know their stuff. But I’ll let you in on a secret. I never came into any job knowing all the technologies they used ahead of time. That never stopped me from learning them and being the best developer they had on whatever project I was assigned. Skill isn’t based on the acronyms you recognize. It’s based on the ability to solve problems.
Just taking a short break while Eclipse installs a Ruby on Rails development environment for me…
10 thoughts on “The Proof is in the Pudding”
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It’s based on the ability to solve problems.
Very true!
This wasn’t really directed at you, Lishian, but more at this place that is making me write a complex Ruby app to show I can program.
Your project was a fun excuse to get a Java 1.5 development environment up.
I didn’t think that it was. I know exactly what it’s like out there.
I’m glad you liked it. Great work, BTW! You would be surprised at what I’ve received from folks on that. Something so small can tell us lots.
Amazon is always looking for good people. Of course, they have a pretty rigorous interview routine.
1) Phone interview #1, with a recruiter
2) Phone interview #2, with a developer (some technical interviewing)
At this point, you’ll probably be asked to write a sample application (like a deck of cards). Document it, write it, test it, and do your best to make yourself look good.
3) Phone interview #3, with another developer (more technical interviewing)
If you’ve passed through these gates, Amazon will fly you out to Seattle and put you up at the W hotel in downtown, provide you with a per diem and expense reimbursements, etc. Take advantage of them and stay a couple days to check out the town.
When you’re in Seattle, you’ll have five interviews during the day.
4) You’ll interview with the team lead
5) You’ll interview with a team member (who will grill you on a related technology)
6) You’ll interview with a bar-raiser (who will ask challenging questions, have you write code on the whiteboard, and will make you feel like you’re not as smart as you thought you were)
7) You’ll interview with one team manager
8) You’ll interview with another team manager
And then you’ll go home, worried that you didn’t do well but at least you got a great view of the whole Seattle area from the interview room.
In my case, I had another interview (9) because one of the team managers couldn’t make it that day, so I got an extra tech interview. Lucky me!
And then, if they make an offer, they’ll want to know how soon you can come out to Seattle (and now you get to negotiate on salary). All your moving expenses will be covered, even pets, and they’ll do their best to make it as painless an experience as possible. You’ll get fully-furnished corporate housing for 45 days (barely long enough to find a house, fine for finding an apartment) and you’ll get right to work that first Monday. And *then* you can spend the next six months to a year thinking, “Oh my god, I’m not smart enough for this job” (just like everyone else does). I’ve seen a lot of people come in and as a condition of employment have their spouses hired as well.
Drop me a line if you’re interested in Seattle. 🙂 The weather isn’t as bad as everyone claims, even if it’s not quite San Diego.
I’ve already tangentially met with Amazon via a third party who was recruiting people for a contract to hire position. I had to fill out a questionnaire about my CSS knowledge, and then the recruiter told me Amazon had passed on me, without any explanation. Applying directly probably wouldn’t work since they have been “poisoned” with my resume by this anonymous recruiter — my sister Hillary warned me about that.
Now I know my CSS knowledge is good, so it couldn’t have been that… I don’t know what it might have been. It was for a contract job. I haven’t had a contract position since Apple, so I just put what I made then ($50/hr) for my contract fee. That was probably too much. I’ve since changed that to $35/hr when people ask. Though I just sold a demo program I wrote for $250 for five hours work, so who knows.
In the month I’ve been looking for work, I’ve learned a whole lot about working with random headhunters. They just pick jobs from somewhere, search Monster and Dice for resumes, then try to get money by brokering them.
I got spammed by one particular short-term contract opportunity in the Bay Area six times from six different agencies in one week. When someone actually CALLED me to talk to me about that SAME position, I couldn’t help laughing. It wasn’t worth trying to understand his incredibly thick Indian accent to listen to a pitch for a job I’d already rejected half a dozen times, so I hung up on him since he seemed determined to read me a script no matter what I said (which was often, “I’m sorry, I can’t understand what you are saying.”)
He then sent me email (claiming his name was “Dave”) thanking me for my interest and trying to get me to agree to something, and then a friend of his with a less-thick accent called claiming “Dave” had referred me to him, and again trying to get me to agree to something.
I was born in Renton, by the way, while my Dad worked at Boeing. We moved back to New England before I got old enough to keep any memories of it. Still, though, I’m a Seattle native! I once got offered a job there, with Microsoft. I interviewed with a few departments, but the one they offerered me a position with was Foxbase Pro, and I didn’t see much future with that.
I was so naive — I should have taken it.
I didn’t really know much about Microsoft other than “the people that killed Digital Research”, since I’d gone from mainframes to vaxen to CP/M-running micros to the Apple Macintosh without really intersecting the DOS/Windows world (which I snobbily considered inferior to the Macintosh back then).
Anyway. The recruiter was really funny. It was raining, and as he took me to lunch in his black Miata, it was hard to hear him over the beating of the rain on the cloth top, and he told me just what you did, that it doesn’t rain ALL the time 🙂 I guess everyone from Seattle probably does that — Hi, I live in Seattle, but it doesn’t rain all the time.
We go to a restaurant in Kingston? Something like that, on the lake. It’s a nice meal, and as we’re leaving we hear yelling behind us… apparently he’d forgotten to, like, pay for the meal…
After returning to the Microsoft campus, he took me to his office, talked with the people with whom I’d “interviewed” (ie, solved their stupid puzzles.) I was all, “don’t you want to see code samples or ask me about what I have done?” and they’re all “solve these brainteasers we ripped off from the back of InfoWorld”. Whatever. I guess I should be thankful they didn’t ask me questions like, “have you ever used a Microsoft product?” or “Did you cry when we killed DRI?”
The recruiter told me that the Foxpro division was interested, and started the hard sell for the job. Among the many advantages of working for Microsoft, he told me, was a “new hires” party at which we would meet Bill.
And I swear to God that I asked him in complete honesty, “Bill who?”
I’m getting paid for that data mining Python script I wrote, and will be doing a follow-up script! Yay! If I had a dozen projects like that a month, I wouldn’t need to look for full-time work 😛
Ruby, by the way, has a depth I didn’t fully realize when I was playing with it a couple years ago. I’m glad I have a reason to really delve into it.
I still prefer Python… for now… because Python gets rid of all those stupid {}/begin..end/do..end Algol-like block seperators.
I wouldn’t necessarily say you’re poisoned at Amazon. True story: about three years ago, right after I purchased a house in Ohio, a friend joined Amazon and moved to Seattle. She tried recruiting me in, but the timing was bad. (I would have been a lot better off if I *had* moved out to Seattle then ’cause I wouldn’t have this huge mortgage payment–but I digress.)
I got through the second interview and missed the telephone interview for the third: meetings with my (then) current employer, messed up scheduling (“I swore he said 4pm Eastern!”), etc. I figured I’d be blackballed for life. Last summer, a recruiter got in touch with me through LinkedIn or my resume webpage at the same time I was looking for a new job, I interviewed through the gauntlet, and moved to Seattle.
If you want, I can throw your resume into the hopper. It’ll be reviewed more carefully because it comes from an employee referral and you’ll be floated around to departments that need your skills. (I wish I could get you on my team: we need more cross-language and platform people.) But if contract work in San Diego is starting to be viable, then excellent!
Oh, and Jeff Bezos (Amazon CEO) is a hoot. He’s a total geek, good businessman, and has a characteristic laugh you can hear through the walls. My team meets with him every two or three weeks and we go over Plogs plans. Something you didn’t know about Jeff: he *reads* customer comments and reviews, seriously thinks about them, and has implemented changes based on feedback. He’s a truly engaged (and engaging) CEO with an eye for detail without losing sight of the big picture. He might rightly be called an anti-Bill.
I wouldn’t say contract work is really taking off. Right now it’s at a level where I could do it on nights or weekends instead of playing MMOs. (My MMO time has plummeted largely because I’m really enjoying learning all these new technologies). If this particular thing DID take off, it would lead me to Massachusetts. Right now, it doesn’t look like I’ll be staying in the San Diego area, but I have resumes percolating through the system at UCSD and CSU/San Marcos, so who knows.
I don’t mean to disparage Bill Gates by my story; I just wasn’t into Microsoft enough so that when someone said Bill, I would immediately think Bill Gates. I mean, Bill is an awfully common name, and I had interviewed with someone named Bill (not Bill Gates) that very day. I met Bill Gates later at a WinCE developer’s conference, and he seemed nice enough.
I’ll send you my resume; I’d love a second chance at a high-profile place like Amazon.
Thanks!
The right job will come around:) Just take it as a sign that those weren’t right for you and something better is just around the corner:) Something big!