I don’t care if you think you hate PvP. You really like it. In your secret heart of hearts, you have more fun when you’re playing against other people.
Imagine Chess as implemented in a non-PvP MMO. You play the White pieces. The AI plays Black. Except, (this being an MMO), Black always moves the same way. And, this being an MMO, if you ever make the wrong move, you can take it back and start over. Eventually, you discover the way past the moves Black always makes, and you win! And then you play this same game a hundred more times, and proclaim yourself the Uber Grandmaster of Chess.
Then you post it on a Chess spoiler site, and everyone else downloads it, beats Black first time with your moves, and proclaim themselves Uber Grandmasters of Chess. Pretty soon, all you have are Uber Grandmasters and noobs, who haven’t heard about that website yet.
Noobs are pathetic idiots. If they were any good, they’d be Uber Grandmasters. Duh!
That’s the non-PvP, MMO version of Chess. Works the same way every time, the only challenge (and it wasn’t much of one) was faced by the first person to figure out Black’s moves, and the Chess MMO devs saved time by not having Black have to change what it does based on how White was moving.
Same with Backgammon, Poker, Baseball, Global Thermonuclear War… all the really fun games you play against other people.
Even the fun times in non-PvP MMOs are against other players, racing other groups or raids to a newly spawned mob, trying to be the first guild to 60 or the fastest to mobilize or whatever… That’s PvP.
Because PvP doesn’t mean, I kill you, take all your stuff, burn your house down, say bad things about you to your friends. It can mean that, but that’s just one definition.
Player vs Player is just that — you against another player, not some stupid AI following a script. It doesn’t have to mean the death of your character or anything more major than a little loss of prestige and bragging rights.
For that matter, MMOs don’t always have to be about killing. Along with the inherent dullness of memorizing scripted behaviors, the emphasis on continual, anonymous, meaningless death is a real barrier for the millions of people who would never play an MMO. It’s hard to make a believable world when the most humble farmer kills a hundred orcs before breakfast.
Being Uberest Grandmaster of Chess when your opponent wasn’t even really playing, means nothing. Likewise, beating Onyxia by following a script you got off the web, means nothing. And you will wonder why the game isn’t fulfilling, eventually get bored, maybe go back to playing chess or poker or running in the Boston Marathon or doing something — anything — with (against) other people.
Even if you think you don’t like to PvP, its presence in the world makes the world more interesting. Playing against the computer is dull. Playing against people is fun. All my best memories of MMOs is against other players — beating a tough encounter before someone else (the encounter was meh, but beating out Guild X — booyah!), being the first on the server to do something (I believe I was the first on Stromm to finish a quest charm in the revised Plane of Hate — OMG WHEE!), top ten mana across all servers with my cleric… it’s all about the competition.
Is it any wonder that, though I only played on PvE servers, all my best memories are from PvP? Competition without even having to kill anyone else.
19 thoughts on “You think you hate PvP, but you don’t.”
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I couldn’t agree more. PvP adds another dynamism layer to the game. Deep inside of us, we all wish for a little pandemonium, that excitement inside when something like ‘Clan X has declared war on your clan’ sprawls over your screen, and everyone on Vent goes, “Yay! Something to keep us occupied other than the constant grind, where can we find these guys?!”.
I think the reason why people hate PvP is that most MMOs seem to get it wrong, and what is known as ‘PvP’ descends into nothing but pure griefing or arena-style combats, whereby killing the same group of people 832782342 times makes absolutely no difference. Only a small handful is able to implement PvP in a well thought-out and workable system.
Also, I guess another reason people stray away from it is the type of people with unpleasant personality types that PvP-centric games tend to inadvertently attract. If we could all have some PvP that at the end of the battle, where everyone would just congratulate each other and throw out a “gg”, like the end of every round in an FPS, it would be certainly more pleasant that the “gf rofl noob” so common nowadays.
Oh and all my best MMO memories are from my experience in Lineage 2, which of course, PvP plays a huge role in. 😉
One of the aspects of DDO I really liked was that the mobs would do things like try to flank you, jump back out of your range, and just generally act a lot smarter. I can’t be sure, but I also think some mobs were more likely to attack certain classes and races than other mobs. It made PvE a lot more like PvP. (Unfortunately combat in DDO tended to be buggy and LoS was ridiculously broken. It’s probably better now.)
I don’t disagree that PvP can be a lot of fun, but I worry that the emphasis on PvP is being used as a crutch to get around making the rest of the game world more interesting. Years later, mobs are no more intelligent than they were in EQ or probably even UO. This is largely why “the grind” is so gawdawfully boring. Mob AI that could come close to passing the Turing Test would be a lot of fun and would provide a nice balance to the PvP “end game.”
And as long as I’m making unfunded mandates, I want a pony.
Mythokia: Clan Wars would work great on an FFA server, but in everquest 2 PVP: you are constantly at war with another faction. Technically, it is like that on a larger scale. I feel that EQ2 PVP is fun, but it would be nice to have PVP quests, writs and maybe a faction-scoped goal of taking over a zone or a castle. In EQ2 PVP, your goals or more focused towards a single player — the more faction you have, the nicer PVP gear you can get.
I don’t know if anyone remembers the game Nox. It was kind of a Diablo clone with a few PvP arena maps. I can’t really explain my feeling on why PvP was so great in this game for me and why nothing else has quite had that hook. I stayed clear of PvP outside of a few duels in EQ. I played around a bit with PvP in WoW. I did my fair share of PvP in the random arenas of GuildWars. I don’t know . . . those capture the flag games in Nox will always have a special place in my heart. They were just a ton of fun. I wonder if anyone still fires up Nox every now and then?
It’s funny, I was recently playing a beta I’m in. One with world-wide PvP that has retrictions. It’s made so that if you don’t want to participate in PvP combat you won’t have to. You’ll always know where it’s going on and that you can avoid it.
But I tell you, running through those areas to get to something you need, the thrill of being chased down by enemies… it’s unlike any feeling you’ll have running from an AI mob.
Once people realize that it’s a game, and that the thrill of the fight and battle can be fun, even if you’re not directly involved, that the thrill of a contended world with real strife is more intriguing than a world that never changes unless on patch day, then we can finally move forward with MMO design.
That said, like anyone, I like to be able to choose when I participate. Being ganked when on a quest is hardly, if ever, fun. So the games, like the afforementioned beta, that dare to find a way to merge both PvE and PvP without alienating either are going to be the ones I gravitate towards.
PotBS, Warhammer, Conan, etc. All look to be trying at this. I hope they succeed.
@Mythokia & Lishian — you’re right, it’s the kind of PvP where people can ruin your fun that gives PvP a bad rep. That’s just one kind of PvP, the easiest. I remember PvP in Band. Yeah, middle school band. To move up, you had to defeat someone else in a (musical, non-killing) duel.
I guess I should just replace “PvP” with “Competition”… and that would be a better word, because I believe the urge to compete lives within all of us.
@Amber — it would be more interesting if the goblins or whatever saw you had a vastly superior force, gave you all their treasure, and begged for their lives. Why would they fight, when fighting wouldn’t make you go away? Unless they figured you’d kill them all no matter what they did. In which case, if I were a goblin, I’d run. I’d run so fast.
@Bildo — that was just how I felt in DAoC. And sometimes, I found myself looking for some PvP. In WoW, I use to /flag and run around low level zones. Nobody had to fight me — if they just ignored me, I couldn’t touch them — but eventually someone would, and then we’d have some fun. Sooner or later I’d die; sometimes it would take a long time (being a priestess, staying alive was something I did pretty well). It was good fun.
I’m likely in the minority when it comes to my interests in MMOs. I really dislike competing with people. I’ve never been one to even play board games. I don’t want to be a winner at the expense of someone else.
And as for killing mobs in game, I do it out of necessity…for a chance at a nice drop, earning money, or factioning, etc. It’s probably what I really enjoyed about SWG. I could take various class routes that were very peaceful and sociable.
So yeah I really do hate PVP!
@Aspendawn — I’m glad you mentioned SWG. There was a game with good PvP. Not only about killing, not only that once you declared for either Empire or Rebels you opened yourself voluntarily to PvP but could ignore it otherwise, but the competition — PvP by another name — was enormous. Best clothing designer, best city architect, best weapon maker, best dancer, richest person…
When I played SWG, the competition was intense for all the crafting professions. They worked hard to be the best, and everyone knew their names.
The rush to become a Jedi when you didn’t even know what you needed to do. Yeah, people griped, it was impossible, most gave up, but the very, very few that did it, were winners.
SWG was all about competing to be the best, and it didn’t necessarily have anything to do with coming into conflict with anyone. Laugh if you like, but I consider SWG to be the best competitive environment of any MMO I have ever played.
It was also really boring, to me. But I want to talk about “the draw” of a game in another post.
I’ve heard this song and dance time and again. PvE is boring, PvP is a real challenge, blah, blah, blah.
There are three points to consider.
1. Not everyone finds the same things ‘exciting’. For some people puzzle solving, or team work, or just hanging with their friends online is fun.
2. Many people don’t need to stroke their ego by ‘proving’ they are better than someone else. Whether its by doing PvE before someone else, or by defeating someone else in combat. Not everyone requires that they feel that they are better than someone else to feel better about themselves.
3. The superior challenge of fighting other players instead of the computer might be valid, except for that the majority of hard core PvPers I’ve met actively go out of their way to avoid anything even remotely challenging. Most dedicated MMO PvPers I’ve seen (friend and enemey alike) don’t want a challenge. They avoid fights on even terms, they seek to ‘gank’, where they are almost certain of a win. And flee where they have any realistic chance of losing.
Just the other day I met a very well geared player (World of Warcraft) who obviously had played lots of Arena matches and Battleground matches, his gear reflecting this activity. Him and a lesser geared character were ganking in an area dominated by 20s. When one 70 showed up they were willing to continue to fight as they still had the upper hand. As soon as a second showed up and the two of them were defeated (due to a foolish mistake on their part), the well geared player choose to spirit rez rather than return to his body, and then left the area. The other character meanwhile raised at his body and tried to hearth.
Battlegrounds and Arenas are about challenge (maybe). Although even then in an MMO it often comes down to gear over player skill. Some people just grind the Arenas and BGs for gear, not trying hard just taking their losses to get the points for their gear.
An online RTS, an online FPS, an online game of cards, chess, or whatever. That is about the challenge of playing against another person.
So called ‘World PvP’ AKA ganking, that’s just ego masturbation.
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Personally I find working out how to defeat the puzzles that have been created is entertaining. After you’ve done the puzzles a few times, then it becomes about doing things with your friends online, and teamwork with your Guild as you try to progress through tougher and tougher challenges that you can’t do alone.
To me, PvP is the thing that gets repatitive. Only the huge stand up brawls of a battleground like AV are particularly interesting. The small fights between a couple people in an Arena or smaller BG, or a skirmish in world PvP (assuming you are roughly equal and its not ganking) – yeah whatever. Wake me when something interesting happens.
The form of PvP you talk about Tipa is the basic idea behind the MMO genre at its core. The change to a more ‘single player in a MMO world’ design is due to the ‘mass market’ effect of WoW and the belief that more players want that. It’s easy to copy the king and try to make a quick buck.
IMO, the next game (WAR IMO) to get PvP right will prove that you don’t need to have limitless solo content to appeal to the masses, just a well thought out PvP system (in the competition way, not just the kill you/kill me way). And in the end, well thought out PvP will have a longer lasting appeal than any amount of solo quests can. Look at the length of time people play EVE Online compared to how long the average player plays WoW and you begin to realize which type of content is more viable in the long run.
@Eric — I can’t help but notice that the one story you told, was a PvP story. Can you tell a story about killing Ragnaros? No, because it’s just like everyone else’s killing-Ragnaros story.
I used to talk a lot about EQ2, until I understood that my EQ2 story was the same as everyone else’s, except the time I spent on the PvP server (which opened my eyes… see, I hate PvP. I really do. Always played on PvE servers. But then I found I was wrong about a lot of things.) I suppose I could write about the disintegration of the guild I gave up everything to join, and I might, but that has nothing to do with the game itself.
I don’t feel everyone should be roped into PKing, which is the kind of PvP I suspect most people really don’t care for. I do think that having the possibility of unpredictability in the world makes for a more dynamic world. Also, in MMOs where designers strive to make everyone the same, competition allows you to break from the crowd.
Take Second Life, a game with no killing, no points, nothing except L$. And yet, I maintain that is a supremely competitive environment — to have the best avatar, make the coolest things, own the most real estate, the most beautifully designed home — and that’s why people play.
Sure, there’s a certain amount of fun in seeing the content, running through the scripted encounters, chatting with friends; but when you’re done with that, why stay?
Competition — AKA PvP.
Myth #1: PvP is lame
What they mean is griefing is lame and losing is lame. Usually when people are taught how to win they’re hooked, especially if they actually listen to you when you tell them to turn off the stupid chat channels.
Myth #2: ‘Smarter’ MOB A.I. would be better
This is a joke. Even the most complex AI in mobs is accomplished with scripts that a monkey could write, and players are still amazed. And when you make the MOBs act truly smart, players end up hating it. Ask any game developer.
A lack of unpredictable and individually relevant dynamics in PvE is a result of poor PvE design; or manipulative PvE design, treating players like sheep. It’s not that PvP is inherently better than PvE.
I agree that PvP is an integral part of any MMO experience, but so is PvE. Even if there were no NPCs, you’d be up against the environment. It’s like soccer. Sure, it’s obviously about competition between players; but it also involves environmental challenges, like temperature, humidity, terrain, elevation, the ball’s responsiveness, and the ref. The environment is an adversary, also.
Games are most fun when they mix PvE and PvP smartly.
As Bildo suggested, tying PvP into a lore setting can do wonders. One of my favorite MMO memories is watching competing factions of NPCs in SWG (stormtroopers and gungans) in a shootout. Being able to stumble onto a battle that was undeniably about more than bragging rights… that’s a game experience I’ll never forget. Knowing that my PvP experience was part of a larger, depthful cause was invaluable. That’s one of the main reasons I can maintain hope that Warhammer will get me playing MMOs again.
Another of my most memorable experiences was also a mix of PvE and PvP… except maybe it would better be described as PaP (Player-among-Players). In SWG, my ranger was able to slowly crawl through a lair of narglatches (like red-scaled lions with bloodlust), reaching the very bottom before they finally saw me and chased me out (killed me too, I think). It was a purely PvE experience, but it was also an experience which was mine alone.
It was something personal, individual, which is why I say it was also PaP. To say an experience is personal is to compare it with the experiences of others, to reference the community. Hence, it’s a way of defining your place among the community. Competition isn’t the only way that sharing the game with other players enhances our gameplay experience.
Great post… I’ve been bored with MMOs lately, and I think you’ve nailed why. I know the strategy. I know how to beat the mobs. Maybe I should look into doing some more PVP…
@Cameron — you should. Most people (me included) have this vision of being in a PvP environment of being continually killed at every step, your gameplay being permanently ruined, just griefers running around following you and keeping you dead, dead, dead.
That isn’t the case. Sure, you will, on EQ2’s PvP Nagafen server, have people of the opposite faction hunt you. But it doesn’t take long to know where the PKers hang out, and they are easy to avoid, and if you’re in a group, well, they either leave you alone or they find out you weren’t as easy a prey as they thought.
And plus, being killed isn’t the end of the world. It’s fun to see players use strats such as trying to toss you off cliffs, or using line-of-sight to their advantage… it makes you a better player, and you learn very soon how to control your exposure to PvP and what to do when you’re in that situation.
The end result is, a sense of danger and excitement even when you’re not PvPing, even when you’re just doing regular quests. It brings the entire game alive.
Some people just will never try PvP. Some might try it and then leave if they get killed. Others will find having to be careful, aware of their surroundings, knowing where help can be found, and working best in groups, brings back the sense of the unknown they remembered from starting their first MMO, before it became known, safe, and dull.
I don’t want to come off sounding like an arrogant PKer, taunting carebears for being scared to play a real game. I think I am coming across like that. I play EQ2 on a blue server — no PvP. I played WoW on a blue server, too, but my guild required us to go PvP flagged. I also play (sometimes) EQ2 on a red server, Nagafen.
So I am in both worlds. And all I can say is, if your game is starting to seem lifeless and dull, why not give PvP a shot? You might be surprised, and it costs you nothing to try.
I’m not a huge fan of MMO PvP, because I have difficulty truly considering it to be “player vs. player.” It’s more “character vs. character” (or “avatar vs. avatar” if you are one of *those* people). The only thing the player is doing is controlling the movement and choosing which attack button to press, everything else is determined by stats. I guess the whole thing could be whittled down to “gear vs. gear” because in the end, he who has the best gear wins, period.
While an FPS might lack depth in the long run, at least the PvP is truly that — player vs. player. Whether you’re a noob or a vet, everyone is put on equal ground when it comes to “gear.” After that, it’s player skill that matters, your “avatar” has no special stats or skills of his own to determine anything.
Now, having said that, what I’d really like is meaningful PvP. Of the WoW battlegrounds, the only one I truly enjoyed was Alterac Valley, because it had many different aspects such collecting resources, gaining control points, summoning NPCs, etc. as well as the ultimate goal of defeating the opposing team’s commander. It was simultaneous PvE and PvP. Now if only winning or losing truly had an overall affect on things…
My very first PvP experience in WoW was as a lowbie night-elf rogue. I’d seen on chat a few times where the Horde was invading Ashenvale but at the time I hadn’t even gotten to that zone. Finally, I’m in Ashenvale, perhaps level 20-ish and the Horde invade. I didn’t join in to gank anyone, it was more a sense of defending a home village. (Is that RP?) Sure, I found out right quick that a 20-ish rogue is but a gnat to 60’s wearing raid/PvP gear but my few seconds of life were exciting nonetheless. I can’t help but wonder that if there truly were some meaning to the PvP, such as the Horde controlling Ashenvale meant the Horde gain those resources, and the Alliance loses their quest/vendor/etc. NPCs then perhaps it would give even the hardcore “I hate PvP” players a legitimate reason to want to contribute to the war somehow.
“I’m not a huge fan of MMO PvP, because I have difficulty truly considering it to be “player vs. player.†It’s more “character vs. character†(or “avatar vs. avatar†if you are one of *those* people). The only thing the player is doing is controlling the movement and choosing which attack button to press, everything else is determined by stats. I guess the whole thing could be whittled down to “gear vs. gear†because in the end, he who has the best gear wins, period.”
And this is really precisely the problem we have with ushering in a new type of MMORPG experience in which people aren’t so petrified of PvP that they wet their pants at the sheer thought. Clearly opinions like this are based on an experience in games like World of Warcraft. Let me tell you folks…World of Warcraft PvP is not PvP at all. World of Warcraft PvP is merely an extension of the PvE in which players that have the high level gear can effortlessly and skillessly assert themselves over players that don’t. Now I know some of this is changing with recent improvements to the game, however it should be noted that a predominant ideaology among a large group of gamers is that what you see in games like World of Warcraft and Everquest is what a true MMO should be.
This is most invariably false. You state that you like FPS because the players are put on equal footing….I agree completely. Why can’t our MMORPG’s be this way? At what point did someone convince us that Everquest can be an MMORPG but that a game where there are no levels (in lieu of a %skill based system), grinds, or “epic gear” cannot be.
The whole idea is ludicrous….
Most people’s idea of PvP is based upon a flawed system to begin with. I think that until we spread a message to all gamers that this doesn’t NEED to be like this then we can start exploring options for real immersive worlds with rich player driven content.
http://www.revolutiong.com
A typical quest in PVP:
1. Collect 30 piles of garbage along the Antonican Highway.
hmmm…
In guild chat:
Can I get some help with collecting 30 piles of garbage along the Antonican Highway?
Point is: EQ2 PVP Servers often force you to play the game the way it was intended… in a group. The game is much better that way. No matter what kind of quest, there is always the excitement of being attacked at any moment. You will *NOT* find this on a blue server!
Last night a guildy wanted to do some of the history book quests. NO CHALLENGE… VERY EASY… wait… we’re on the nagafen server.. I’ll help you out, dude. RESULT: History books finished… his toon… Hunter title… my toon… Slayer title… 27 kills… a shiiitloads of fun during an otherwise boring as butter quest.
Ugh… all this PvP talk is really making me want PotBS and WAR to come out as soon as possible. Mainly the former.