There’s a lot of discussion about PvP in upcoming MMOs. How hardcore will it be, will it interest non-PvPers… It can. If the penalty for losing is not that great, I feel people will embrace it. By slowly removing the PvE experience as you level, as Warhammer is said to be contemplating, you end up in PvP quite naturally. That’s certainly how I went from a PvE EQ1 player to a RvR DAoC player.
Most popular games in history have been PvP — team sports are nearly all that way; board games are all like that; card games… games can be a certain amount of fun by themselves, but add someone else across the field or across the table and it becomes a true experience.
Guitar Hero is a fun single player game. It got a lot more fun when Genj and I were dueling last time she was up — her on Medium and me on Expert, so we were evenly matched. Actually, I think she won… but I was trying a lot harder to play well than if I had just been going through the game by myself.
PvP makes you *want* to play better.
Rock Band is a fun cooperative game — you and three friends make a band and play songs together. But it gets a lot more fun when you challenge people online. Sure, you’re the top dawg in your living room… but you’re a small puppy in the pound.
Last weekend, I terrified noobs by completely destroying them in the Tug of War duels on drums. One guy — “choke u” — sent me terrified messages afterward begging me to go play Hard duels instead of sitting around camping him on Medium. Well, I can’t play all songs on Hard, that’s why. Anyway, “choke u” is one of the Motorcycle Fotographers that quit when they’re losing to protect their ranking. So who cares what he thinks. And besides, with his low rank, he’s not swimming with the sharks that lurk in the deep, dark corners.
Tug of War is strategic, in the sense that every few bars the other person plays; sometimes you play together but mostly, you have a few seconds to watch their play, get a sense for how you should use (or save) your Overdrive. For instance, if the other player just started a long roll, you can see, for example, if they can even DO long rolls — noob players don’t have the precision. And if they do do them, well, at least you know that’s an excellent time for an Overdrive, since you get max points for them AND long rolls usually include another Overdrive to extend it even further.
That sort of thing. It’s kind of a bloodless PvP, aside from the huge damage to your rank if you lose.
Last night, I decided to go really hardcore and do Score Duel — both players play the whole song through, you can’t really see what the other player is doing, it’s like a 100m dash compared to a relay race.
I was lucky to get some casual duelists to start that let me break my habit of watching the other player before losing could damage my new rank. I was between rank 0 and 1 for at least four songs.
Then came Metallica’s “Blackened”. This is a DLC content — we both had to have bought it for it to appear as an option. So I was dealing with a real rocker. Blackened has long sections of quartets where it goes ‘snare-kick-snare-rest’ mixed in with ‘snare-(kick+tom)-snare-rest’, and it does so very fast.
I’d played Blackened before, but never in a duel, so I’d forgotten about them. Usually it’s not a problem, I learn the new pattern and then I’m fine. This time, it was like being neck and neck with another runner — and then tripping. He zoomed ahead. I came close, but never caught up after that — whereas I might have been able to in Tug of War with good Overdrive control.
Things went well until Deep Purple’s “Highway Star” — a song I’m usually pretty good at, since it is Jazz’s favorite (and also the song that opens the game). This is a song that is pretty easy, except where it’s not. There’s one spot, easy to miss, where they syncopate the snare for ONE beat. And they have BUNCHES of of grace notes followed by a kick+cymbal hit which take really good timing (they often have four or more in a row) and often contain an Overdrive as well. So it’s IMPORTANT to take those.
Every song has a different strategy, with its own high and low points and zones of control. Of course, playing perfectly would be a pretty good offense, but even the best players make mistakes.
I do love the PvP, and I’m working up to playing on Hard mode — playing the real demons. Medium is about as far as you can go without some sort of special affinity for the drums. After that, you’re beginning to play for real — a totally new world. Real drummers syncopate EVERYTHING, drop out drums randomly, never kick once where two would do.
I’m going to be severely beaten when I get there. But I’ll probably, perversely, enjoy it. And I’ll wallop some other newbie later on.
That’s the whole PvP thing, right?
One difference, one really important difference, between this and MMO PvP: in Rock Band, everyone has the same gear. The only thing that separates you from the other player is skill. You can’t fake it. You can’t get around it. You *can* use strategy to get around it, but that is another part of skill. MMOs only get you to keep playing because they promise that good enough gear means you can get by without as much skill.
This is what confuses me about MMO PvP. The *real* PvPers play shooters or real-time strategy games; they know the names of their opponents and they win or lose on their own skill. I just can’t see how grinding levels for gear so skill doesn’t matter even qualifies. What the heck is PvP even doing on MMOs?
It’s pretty broken on EQ2 and WoW — gear and levels trumps skill — and since WAR has both gear and levels, I guess it will have the same crutches. The last thing a MMO PvPer wants, is a fair fight. If they were all about both sides being equal and winning on skill alone — they’d go play Halo or something.
MMO PvP is therefore a niche, only a shadow of the real thing. All the real PvP has moved to other genres.
23 thoughts on “Rock Band: Real PvP vs Carebear PvP”
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How would you explain the greatest PvP MMO out currently then, EVE? It has items and levels (skills, but they are basically they same thing here), yet is very balanced and keeps players playing for years, not months.
PvP is indeed broken when you look at EQ2 or WoW, because those are PvE based games. EVE is PvP based, and hence it works. WAR ‘might’ work given it’s PvP base, but we will have to wait and see.
All that and you forgot to mention your grandson in the photo. tisk tisk lol
Oh, so now it’s okay to say I’m a grandmother.
I’ve said the same thing for years, Tipa! RPG’s were always PvE to begin with; any attempt at PvP was haphazard at best and relegated to only occasional duels or bar brawls.
What we have in MMO’s is *not* PvP — Player vs. Player — it’s my character’s gear (and level, if we’re not capped) vs. your character’s gear. Period. The only thing I, as the Player, have any input on is where I position my character and which hotbar keys I spam.
The only real difference would be Guild Wars (not an MMO) as it’s a skills-based game, not levels and gear based. Everyone is essentially on equal ground, the deciding factors being your skill as a player in determining which skills to equip on your character and when to use them. It’s a totally different ballgame than all the other run-of-the-mill “PvP” in the MMO’s and has the most competitive PvP outside the shooter genre.
Still, when I want true PvP (at least of the “blow shit up” variety) I’ll go to a shooter where it’s you and your skill vs. me and my lack thereof. (Shame, really, I used to relish having the skill to frag the college kids on their T1 lines while I was on crappy 56k dialup. See what MMO’s do to a person? hahahaha)
Otherwise, sports games, card games (UNO on XBLA is fun!) or something like Rock Band or DDR is also a great form of competitive PvP that don’t have to devolve into the violent blow-shit-up type.
I was definitely thinking of Guild Wars when I wrote this, but that (as you say) is not an MMO. Going the other way, the addition of levels and loot in Call of Duty 4 really unbalances things — I watch my son play, and gear is so very important in that game…
I haven’t played enough COD4 to even understand the whole levels etc. but I do play Battlefield 2142 and I absolutely LOVE their ranking system and unlocks. In my experience, the unlocks don’t unbalance things at all. In my case I typically play the Assault class, which is high-damage close/mid-range combat and healing. (Paladin with a gun!) I have the ability to gradually unlock better rifles or ammo but it’s almost the equivalent of a +dmg buff rather than becoming an uber BOOM Headshot gun that one-shot-kills everyone. I’m so out of practice at FPS’ I can use every benefit I can get but bottom line: it’s all about the skill. I’ve heard COD4’s approach was rather unfortunate but quite frankly, the single player campaign has been fun, intense, engaging and emotional while the multiplayer I’ve bothered with so far is nothing more than another generic (fast and fun, sure, but been-there, done that) urban combat skirmish game that are a dime a dozen.
I think you have hit the nail on the head Tipa. I couldn’t say it better myself :
“The *real* PvPers play shooters or real-time strategy games; they know the names of their opponents and they win or lose on their own skill. I just can’t see how grinding levels for gear so skill doesn’t matter even qualifies. What the heck is PvP even doing on MMOs?”
By the way I am slowly working my way up the ranks in COD4 and gear is not that important. The starting classes are well balanced powerful classes. Unlocking gear allows you to play in a different manner but there are tradeoffs. For example a sub machine gun with a faster rate of fire will be less accurate at a distance, Equipping a fancy sight to your rifle removes the grenade launcher and so on. Progressing gives you more choices as to how you play but does not really make you more powerful.
My experience with CoD4 is solely based on watching my son play — he is a REAL PvPer, PvP is all he likes anymore, and after trying EQ2’s PvP, he’s moved to console shooters exclusively. Anyway, Xbox Live screwed up and deleveled his character and there was some loot he missed, and he felt he couldn’t play anymore, died too easy. A call to Xbox Live got his character restored and he was happy again. So it seemed to me the levels and gear counted for something, at least to him 🙂 And now he moves smartly around the battlefield, killing people in short bursts whereas when he first started, it seemed he could empty clip after clip into people without bringing them down.
Things seem more even to me when he plays Lost Planet, a traditional shooter where everyone starts equally.
Awww that is the sweetest picture…
I think it must be a matter of play style Tipa. I assure you the starting characters are fully equipped with a complete set of equipment and perks. Perhaps the default load outs do not suit your sons play style.
I bow to your better knowledge of the game 🙂
Do you pvp in EQ2? if so, which server?
When I played EQ2 PvP, I played on Nagafen. Now I am just playing on Befallen; the gameplay was more exciting to be sure on Nagafen with the constant threat of sudden death, but I feel to really do PvP *right* that that has to be the main focus of your gameplay, and I was too interested in PvE to do many “gank” groups — people would normally form groups or raids to attack people doing quests. PvE and PvP really cannot mix.
PvE and PvP really cannot mix
Currently, no they don’t. I see no reason that devs in the future could find a way to intermingle the two in a fun and compelling way though.
What syncaine @ Hardcore Casual calls “Impact PvP” I call “Meaningful PvP” (if I’m following his concept anyway). In other words, make the PvP impact, or be meaningful to, the PvE players, and vice-versa.
Example: Guild Wars has a few uber elite areas that used to only be open if the PvP players of your “world” (aka nation: US, EU, Asia) had won enough matches to gain “favor of the gods” for that nation. So if the US PvP-ers got us favor, the US PvE-ers could go to the Underworld, Fissure of Woe, etc. where the best stuff was. Later, the PvE-ers wanted to contribute to the gain (or loss) of favor so the devs added that ability as well.
If I understand RvR from DAOC (and probably WAR) it was a similar concept?
Tabula Rasa’s constant war between the humans and Bane mean sometimes outposts will be under Bane control, therefore losing those NPC’s and all they mean to the PvE players. However, that’s still PvE, you’re not fighting Bane players.
My first MMO PvP was in WoW when I was a lowly level 21 rogue in Ashenvale and some Horde attacked the town. Sure, some high-level Alliance arrived eventually to save us, but in the interest of role-playing (or whatever) I flagged up and defended my night elven town even though I knew I’d be of little use. Actually, I had no idea just *how* little use I’d be and how quickly (insta-death!) I would be slaughtered by the high-level Horde invaders, but it made me feel good that I died for a good cause. Now if WoW took that further and gave the PvE players a true, meaningful reason to contribute even indirectly, I think that would help integrate the two camps. Maybe.
DAoC had walled areas which opposing factions would have a lot of trouble to pass, though people did find ways in early DAoC, but they toughened that up until it was nearly impossible. After level 15, you moved to the Frontier, which was open, faction-based PvP. Usually what happened there is a stealthed enemy would prowl about looking for a likely group and kill as many as possible before running off, or a group making no attempt to stealth would come by and camp the newbie areas. Usually these would be fantastically unbalanced fights. Then the high levels would come, and the enemy group would either fight or run.
The frontier contained a number of keeps which could be attacked and captured, and then your guild banner would hang from it as long as they were willing to pay for it or until it was recaptured. These keeps could contain artifacts, the ownership of which would provide benefits to your faction.
There was one easily reachable place in the Frontier not far from the Hibernia border called Emain Mache (or something like that), and usually world PvP would happen there. They did a big content addition to the battlegrounds and made different battlegrounds for different levels, and after that world PvP mostly disappeared and moved to the battlegrounds, which is where it was when I left DAoC.
The most innovative thing about that — and you can see the seeds of WoW PvP there — was the game’s web site, which tracked individual, guild and realm victories, so you could rank yourself in many different ways, there were lots of ways to participate in PvP — being a solo stealthed killer, going about in a group killing people on the frontier, laying siege to keeps with your guild, or casual, quick battlegrounds.
It really was incredibly fun, but I felt it wasn’t very exciting. Even though almost all fighting was PvP and even though there was a lot of out-of-game fun on the IGN boards — it felt like “EQ Lite” to me and I eventually got bored and returned to EQ1.
In WoW, my first PvP, aside from random high level people running through the newbie grounds, was world PvP where people would be trying to take the Crossroads in the Barrens, and then the massive battles at Tarren Mills. That eventually turned into the battlegrounds, which were pretty frustrating, since as a healer, I’d be instantly killed by Alliance people. So while everyone was out earning honor and having fun, I’d be waiting for respawn… I rerolled as an Alliance rogue and had a LOT more fun in battlegrounds but that eventually got boring so I left WoW for EQ2.
I’ve tried PvP, but I just find it — boring after awhile. Just seemed so rote and by the numbers all the time. Keen’s posts about PotBS make me wonder if there is a better way. I tried EvE but didn’t PvP there; I was still feeling my way around when my free trial ended.
In the end I just realized that — at least in the games I tried — you can’t have any sort of PvE focus because it’s just going to get in the way of PvP. When i first read about WAR, it seemed like this was the direction in which it was going — pure PvP from day one, you would walk out of your newbie field and then you would be part of the battle and there would be no killing ten rats, you would be on the front lines, soldier. Now I hear about a shifting PvE/PvP game, which seems pointed right at WoW players who will be expecting the WoW experience. I wish they had ignored WoW.
I’ll try it, of course. I liked WoW. Wasn’t a long term game for me but I did enjoy it while I played. WAR might have some magic combination of elements that really ‘clicks’, but right now it sounds so similar to DAoC that I wonder if I will find it new.
This is an interesting post…
I was on another blog where this was discussed also..Tobold’s I believe…
My remark was pretty easy,…
Good PvP already exists…it is called…
XBox Live
Hmmm…
And your example happens to be an Xbox based / PS3 game.
It is inherent to be competitive on Xbox live…so, this is perfect “PvP”
But, it seems all attempts at a good PvP system has failed (Archlord, Fury, etc.)
The only really good RPG based game for PvP seems to be Guild Wars. Some people do like WoW, EQ2 or Lineage 2 even for PvP…
But, the gankfest issues are too common. Rulesets either do not exist or are not respected. Guild Wars eliminated this with their matching system. No major twinking exists, and it is fast and fun..(and the only PvP I have ever liked…)
There is no doubt…games that offer Roleplay servers seems to have the larger populations…and PvP is an afterthought…
But, that is just it…”after thought”…
What if the game is built from the ground up to offer the PvE/PvP based gameplay..supposedly Aion offers this. AoC is suppose to offer a beginning PvE to gradually build up to PvP…and it is stated that WAR also will do this…
The thought interests me…but, I will always be thinking in the back of my mind about the Lineage 2 demo I did, where another PC runs up to me, looking quite nice in his plain clothes outfit…I bow, say “Hello”…..
BAM
One hit, your dead…
Well then…logoff…/quit
That type of behavior is yet another reason I am for the abolishment of “levels” period in future RPG’s. It’s an old-school mechanism, it’s had it’s time in the sun, it’s time to move on…
That said, when you say a game should start with PvE and build into PvP… how exactly? On the one hand, I’m all for more advanced AI (at least for mobs that are supposed to be intelligent) rather than the stand still and take turns playing Rock ’em Sock ’em Robots til one of us drops. Better AI would lead to PvP against more unpredictable human players as less a culture shock than the polar extremes we have now, going from completely stupid mobs to players running all over, with no middle ground to practice up on. On the other hand, it’s a design philosophy that players want to know they’re (almost) always going to win, and so the stupid AI wins over the superior AI, unfortunately.
Again, I’ll give Guild Wars props in that department: their AI is hardly genius but it’s more ruthless and “hardcore” than you’d see in WoW/EQ2. The mobs will gladly kite you into other groups of mobs, they’ll run out of your AoE attacks, and other behavior that would fall into the “duh” category for human players, so switching to PvP isn’t as difficult there.
Wanna make me a happy camper? Get rid of levels, first and foremost. For PvP we may not be on equal footing due to character/skill/gear progression (it’s an RPG after all) but there won’t be any of this lvl 70 corpse camping a lvl 5 nooblet shit. The noob will at least have a fighting chance (pun intended) to escape or *gasp* even win if he’s lucky. Give me better AI in the NPC’s, even have them smack-talk me a bit (/hugs to AC2…) and give me scenarios where even if I’m a die-hard PvE-er, the PvP will have enough meaning or impact that I will *want* to participate either directly fighting or indirectly somehow and in a means that encourages teamwork and interaction with the other players.
Also as I mentioned in a recent post on my site (apologies for the shameless plug) PvP does not have to be Player/Team A *murdering* Player/Team B. Look at Xbox Live (since it’s been mentioned several times in this thread). Once you get past the obligatory shooters, you have sports games (team vs. team pvp that is friendly competition, not violent pixel murder), racing games (solo non-murdering PvP) and XBLA card/board games (solo and team friendly PvP).
Have a look at a game called Fury, it is almost totally pvp, with the exception of bots that drop tokens which need to be taken back to your team base. It is F2P, or you can upgrade your account for a one time fee of $20, or go all out and pay the standard $15 for a super account. Although the better accounts doesn’t make you *stronger* as such, they just add features, for instance at the end of a match gear drops, free accounts get to roll on one item while the monthly sub accounts can roll on three, or three times on the same one. But thats not my point, just interesting.
My point is the developers have gone out of their way to make skill a bigger decider than gear. I honostly couldn’t give you an example of *how* they do this, but it does seem to come out in the game play. I would love to recommend Fury to people, but in the end its just not *that* good. I love a company who tries to innovate in what I see as a pretty stagnant part of the industry.
Another game that needs to be mentioned is A Tale in the Desert. Its an amazing game that never got the attention it deserved.
And finally, my current obsession, Project Torque. Its a mmo racer that actually works pretty well. Has a bright future as well, with promises of a new track a week and lots of cars, paint jobs and the like.
My point is the developers have gone out of their way to make skill a bigger decider than gear.
They do? Where? WHERE? Sure, some small indie teams are quite willing to take chances, win or lose (huge lose in the case of Fury which you mentioned) but the Big Boys are after the money, and the money doesn’t come from skilled players.
I don’t care how good I may or may not be in WoW PvP (and I was reasonably good back when I played) if I had better gear than you I could spam 1,2,3 and not even look at the screen. I win, period.
But, WoW is a gear-centric game, they’ve never made bones about that nor claimed otherwise. So it works within that limited context. I also realize that if it comes to true PvP (ie. player only skill) then I’m limited to a niche game with a small audience (ie. not many people to play with). That’s why I’m more in favor of a (character) skills-based game where player skill is a factor, but something you can grow into and learn rather than *boom one-shot kill from a high-level ganker* and get discouraged. The deciding factor would be which character skills you use, not your level and certainly not your gear.
My impression of EVE is that it uses a system somewhat like I’m describing. Old SWG did, Ryzom did, GW2 most likely will (otherwise it won’t really be GW anymore) and the just-announced Earthrise will be using that scheme too.
Where? In that map where I got my arse handed to me by a noob, even though I had good gear. =P
Planetside is a good example a gearless(for the most part) PvP game. I’m quite fond of it actually.
I bought PS last year after I’d heard good things about it, but between it’s horrid interface (have its devs ever played a video game? EVER?) and the fact I’ve seen oh… 2 or 3 other players on a map EVER… I see no reason to bother with it when I have my choice of hundreds of FPS’ with good/great interfaces and no monthly fees.
Is PS gearless? That’s not the impression I was given from reading forums and blog posts, but I doubt I’ll ever find out myself.
I’m sure an MMOFPS is possible, hell PS proved it’s “possible” but can it be compelling and worth a monthly fee? I like fragging people as much as the next guy but not all day. At least in an RPG environment I can explore, I can chat with friends, I can harvest or craft, or I can turn my brain off and murder innocent AI monsters. In a shooter, you… shoot.
Oh and don’t even mention Huxley, there’s no “massively multiplayer” to it.
There *is* gear, but its not dropped, camped or farmed. So most of the gear is available to everyone, its how you use it that makes a difference.
I’ve never had a problem finding a fight, hit the instant action and there is almost always 10-20 guys fighting for control of this or that. I found the game *much* more interesting in a well put together squad as well. I would run a pilot/support character while the others did the killing.
But yeah, in the end its not an RPG, so the exploring/havesting/goofing off just isn’t there. I remember the good old days of EQ, sitting in the Ecomm tunnel just hanging out with everyone else. Jeez I miss that.