Dan O’Halloran sent me a message Saturday saying that the crew at Massively had tracked down EQ2’s senior producer and asked him about the experience design in Kunark — group experience minimized, quest experience emphasized. When Kunark opened, my guild first made groups and tore off to explore the new content. Having a lot of fun, and exploring, but not making that much experience.
Since the expansion came out last week, we have become a guild of soloers; which is fantastic, if you’re a class that can solo well. Everyone has respeced to DPS. Sometimes people pair off. Sometimes people need to finish a quest but can’t because people are just so far away.
I’m fine with the leveling speed; my main at 74, and my alt at 72, just about where I expected them to be a week in. The level leader in my guild — I think he is 78 — is also one of the best soloers, and he obviously hasn’t got a problem with the quest grind. I’m even fine with questing. I like doing quests when I haven’t anything else to do.
What I DO have the problem with, is the death of the traditional xp grind/dungeon crawl that WAS the norm for EQ2 up until and including the last expansion, Echoes of Faydwer. Karnor’s Castle is just an intricately designed doorway to the raid zone inside. Chardok has a nice group ring event at the beginning, so they’re trying, but the xp is still so bad that a group I was in decided to head back to Castle Mistmoore. Not because the xp was better, because it wasn’t, but because the whole mechanic of crawling a huge dungeon, with danger and loot at every turn, is just such a rush.
Previously, most higher level quests led you into dungeons, giving a reason to crawl. It all just seemed to just work. EQ2 really nailed the dungeon crawl.
This is going to be my last work regarding the retuning of EQ2 to be more soloer friendly. There’s no sense in beating this particular dead horse. Just going to quote Scott’s reply, with my, hopefully useful, comments. I’m not quoting the whole thing here, so head to Massively to read his entire response.
When we decided to make quests pay as well as we did, we wanted to observe it as long as we could, which is why the exp payout rate was in place before the first external tester ever set foot into RoK alpha. It’s a pretty big shock for EQ2, having this unprecedented volume of quests in a single release, and as primary leveling content. So far, it seems to have been the right decision to make. … As Kunark is a content-heavy expansion, that tells me that the audience as a whole is enjoying the hell out of said content.
The thing about quests is that you do them once. Once they’re done — then what? Combat experience rewards are minimal, so how will we get enough experience to continue our AA grind (which will become harder after 120 AAs), when we finish the quests?
People like the new expansion, but then it’s only a week out. People like leveling (it’s true!) and they like busy zones and discovering new things. Several months down the line, it’s going to be hard as heck for people who don’t solo well or prefer to group, to get help with this content.
Coincidentally, I got a few great IMs from raiders last night on the subject, whose guilds pride themselves on being among the first to max level so they can rush straight into raiding. One of them sums it up really well: “This is the first time I haven’t had to spend the first weeks of an expansion mindlessly sitting in the same 6×6 room grinding. I’m actually getting to enjoy it. This is fun.” Another was more brief: “quest xp = <3" Comments like that tell me that we've either hit our mark, or we're at least very close to it.
Comments like these tell me that hardcore solo level grinders appreciate not having to slow themselves down for other people. This sort of mono-focused person is regrettably common, and we have one in particular in the guild. His sole contributions to the guild’s progress through Kunark: Bragging about the places he is and linking stuff he has found, but of course, nobody in the guild is there with him. In this, it reminds me very much of my experience with similar people in the World of Warcraft. It’s all about one person.
Dungeon experience used to be an amazingly better payoff compared to questing – On the order of 3-10x faster, depending on how good a group was.
Yes, the EQ2 we all played from 1-70, and presumably liked since we’re still here, was built on a model that was removed for the Rise of Kunark.
EverQuest II is not a game about sitting in one place and grinding. You find the activity that defines the core of your game, then you make sure it’s the part you polish the most, then you make damn sure it’s rewarding. That activity is questing.
Where does this come from? EQ2 was always about two things: Dungeon crawls and getting loot. Quests were just things you could do to make the effort more rewarding. I didn’t need to do a quest when I went to Obelisk of Blight or Crypt of Varsoon or Kaladim. I went because I like doing fun stuff with other people, and to get loot to better my character.
Most of the quests in my journal I never get around to doing, unless they result in an upgrade for my character.
I don’t think I’m alone in this.
Now, of course, I have to. I have to do EVERY QUEST for Teren’s Grasp faction in Kylong Plains in order to be +50,000 faction and use the faction merchant. There’s 76 (I believe) quests in the Fens of Nathsar, and if I want to get to the place where I can use their faction merchants, I better not miss one. And since the Rilisian and Bathezid factions are at odds, those quests have to be done carefully in order to not become KOS to one or the other (being KOS to Rilisians will bring you no end of trouble…)
The positive reaction to the improved quest xp rate in beta was another reason that we boosted level 20-70 quest experience in the rest of EQ2 along with this release. It’s just a far more fun way to play the game.
This is your opinion. Dungeon crawling in a group has always been my most fun way to play the game. I have great memories of crawling Blackburrow, Stormhold, Wailing Caves, Fallen Gate, Ruins of Varsoon, Runnyeye, Drafling Tower… I don’t need to continue. I enjoyed them all. I leveled and I got look. I sat in one place and grinded in Thundering Steppes, Nektulos and then lastly in the Breeding Grounds. And I had fun doing them. I don’t find quest grinding all that fun, personally. I felt it was a pointless grind in WoW, and much preferred to chuck it all and head into the Deadmines or Blackrock Depths again.
I’d say to read all the way through to the end of their blogs and posts. The part where after talking about what might become a problem, most go on to say things like, “Everyone’s having a blast,” “best quality expansion ever,” and continue to admit that even if dungeon group xp is a problem, it’s only one in the extreme short term.
I would be a lot more frustrated if I hadn’t transferred my cleric to her own account, gotten my second computer running Windows again and started two boxing. More on that in another post. I can solo with my troubador, but it’s far from being an effective use of my time.
Last night some of us stuck soloing came together and knocked out a couple of nameds, and then we split up again. This is exactly what happens in WoW. You solo until you can’t, you make a group for a specific named, named dies, everyone goes back to solo. Why does EQ2 need to follow this model?
Levelling is a transitory activity. Level 80, on the other hand, lasts a long time. Regardless of whether dungeon xp is tweaked or not, two months from now this entire conversation becomes moot, and people have had a blast in the meanwhile.
Sure, those of us grinding levels — and it’s grinding whether you do it in a dungeon getting xp by killing stuff or grinding doing quests you must do whether or not you enjoy them — will be 80 in a month or less. And then… we get to level our alts. Where there were previously many paths through the game, Kunark has narrowed it down to just one.
After that, it’s doing dungeons for loot, just like before. But nobody’s going to use KC for that. They would have used it to help level, if they could have. That would have been its shining purpose; step off the boat and you could do quests, or if you had a good group, go grind levels off the backs of drolvargs. Now, all there are, are quests.
Why did the decision have to go one way or the other? Why not provide paths to 80 through questing OR dungeon crawling OR some combination of both? Telling people that the gameplay they previously enjoyed while leveling was not as fun as doing quests, and therefore the old gameplay would be replaced with new, is limiting people’s options.
I don’t have a need to be right or wrong here. I would just like more options for my own particular road to 80. If I prefer to group and grind xp to 80, something supported by Desert of Flames and Kingdom of Sky, the two previous level cap-raising expansions — and my own particular path to 70 — then why can’t I do that?
Tipa,
all I can say is that I agree with you on all aspects. I do the solo quests, but i really enjoy going into a dungeon, and I have some really great memories of literally weeks spent in Nest and palace of the Awakened and the Halls of Fate going through again and again on my way to 70. And each time it never really felt like a grind to me. But I also spent a lot of time doing all the quests offered in KOS as well, and then in the Loping Plains and other parts of EoF. I will just parrot you and wonder why they had to sacrifice one to make the other possible
Couple things jump out at me here –
1) I’m clearly going to love this expansion as a quest-obsessed person. Been enjoying it so far, but it’s not perfect. There’s something manic about the way I’m doing the Kylong quests while ignoring the dialog and the lore. Maybe it’s just me, but perhaps Tipa is hitting something deeper here too. If you force people through quests, are you losing the joy of the experience of finishing the quest ? And instead, turning questing into a grind ?
2) Never have I seen EQ2 as the gear-focused game that EQ1 was. I’ve gone 70 levels, and roughly ignored gear for all of them. My gear comes from quests and perhaps 3 broker purchases.
3) It’s strange to me that anyone could look at EQ2 as not a game about, primarily, questing. The engine is so much better than the competitors that I’ve seen. Quests are pervasive, varied, and well tracked. One thing I probably have done a handful of times in this game is dungeon crawled. And yet…..
4) I’ll paraphrase Grimwell and state that EQ2 is an awful lot of things to an awful lot of people. You can’t summarize it in single sentences like “It’s about questing”. Seeing the senior producer say that is pretty worrying. I hope they’re careful not to wreck the game for any segment as that would clearly be bad for all of us long term.
With all this said, adventuring in the old and new worlds since Kunark has been a complete refreshing joy to me.
Amen brother…. I’ve been saying the same thing but from a slighly different perspective. For the folks on the PVP servers, decent xp gain in instances and dungeons gave us an option of leveling up without getting rolled 10 times a night by gank groups camping the docks, sokokars or quest turn in areas. Solo quests are great on PVE servers but they aren’t so great on PVP. I think the devs could have provided equal exp gain options both grouping in dungeons and questing solo overland mobs. EQ2 is a social game, the grind up to 80 should be social or at least allow those who want to be social that opportunity. The problem with the quest chains is that you have to group to stay alive doing them on the PVP servers and most of the time everyone in your group is at a different place on the chains. In other words, you can’t get groups to go back and help you out. It gets frustratating. Sure it’s PVP but why mess with game mechanics that work? How can it possibly be a bad thing to provide good viable xp gain options both questing and dungeon grinding? Isn’t the SOE mantra to create games that are fun – why did they decide that fun means solo quest grinding. Judging from the amount of posts on this, I’d say at least half of their players feel the same way I do. To me, Scott’s response was basically giving that segment of the population the finger. It’s very similar to the goverment telling you they know what you want and they know what’s better for you than you do.
There’s a dozen different ways to say it – but you got it nailed. When are we going to get the other half of the expansion? The half where they let you do “multiplayer” as well as “massive”?
I’m a quester first and foremost – but RoK’s content balance is bizarrely weighted towards solo quests. A lot of which are really boring, unimaginative quests. I’ve killed my 10 rats. About 121 times so far. Now can I have some fun with my mates please?
Tipa, I tend to agree with you, and I often wonder why designers feel the need to mess with things once a game reaches maturity. I think most gamers would like more content of similar dynamics (game-style dynamics, that is) rather than a new way to interact with the game, guild, and how you group. Social aspects of the game are so important that it’s very dangerous to mess with that. I saw a guild implode under the changes that POP brought to Everquest.
Anyway, good read. Thanks!
Tipa,
I have to disagree, actually. It seems like you’re overlooking something that didn’t exist in the original game, but now is a big part of it: AA’s.
Yeah, up through level 60 in DoF you didn’t have to quest becuz you could go in the dungeon and get xp and loot and it was nice to do that. I too have my fond memories of crawling through RoV, Stormhold, WC, FG, RE, et al.
But then in KoS we got AA, and to get that while leveling up, well sure you can kill named and discover new places and find the rare loots that give it, but your primary way of getting it is . . . . . quest like a madman. Or do you really want to get up to level 80 with only 110 or so AA’s and have to grind out the last 30?
Me, I’m hoping to hit about 135-140 AA points as I hit 80, and if the price I “pay” for that is to do lots and lots of(IMO really fun) quests solo or in small groups. . . I’m actually thrilled to do so.
This isn’t to say that I don’t like heroic dungeons. Don’t know why, but I still love to hit up BSS, PoA, Vaults, and HoF just for the heck of it. Earlier today I mentored my warlock down to 65 in an SoS group. Didn’t have anything going on, just did it for fun. But tomorrow I’ll be back in the Fens questing for sure. Why? Becuz I’m loving that also, and I’m loving getting AA. I only had 82 when I hit 70 a few weeks ago on this toon, and 91 when RoK came out. Now I’ve got 104 and am level 73 and can’t wait to get some more points. Frankly, I’m more excited about getting AA xp than I am levels. I know the levels will come. Heck, I gained my 1st 2 levels in about 6 hours from doing the KP quests. . . but even so, I was far happier with the 10 aa points I got from doing them. I really don’t want to have to grind out AA, so I’m very happy to have tons of quests to help me get them.
That said. . . I would hope that there’s better loot in the heroic zones at the very least. So far what I’ve been hearing is kinda disappointing on that front.
AAs is a semi-valid point, but at least in my case, I had all the AAs I wanted in Hour One of the expansion. I respecced everything out of the Troubador tree and spent my 70 points in the Bard tree, where I added DPS back to my heretofore buffin’ fool spec. Then I started filling the Troub tree back in, and now I have pretty much all the AAs from there, too. After I finish my charm AAs, I’ll be back where I was before, putting AAs in random places just to have them spent.
Other classes may have more useful trees, and it is a valid point. My last fifteen or so points previously, came a little slow.
And mind, I am not saying questing is bad or has no purpose. I just want the old dungeon grind back, too. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
Nice commentary. I’ll be the first to agree that quests, while nice, make progressing through later characters less fun.
Nice post Tipa and I have to agree with some aspects of your argument here because they are very well explained. I too enjoy running through dungeons just for the grind/loot/adventure of it and not having to stop every 5 minutes and say “Did everyone get the update?” or “Who needs 3 more foozles?”. The group I belong to is not level capped or AA capped but we enjoy ourselves. However, I could care less if the exp is less when grinding mobs rather than doing quests because I’m just enjoying the adventure.
What bothers me is that I can halt my adventuring exp to stay within the same levels as my friends but I have no control over the quest exp which has increased dramatically over the last week. I like choices and freedoms, not restrictions. This decision to change quest exp just forced me to level cap that much faster. You know what? I don’t want that.
They’ve adjusted dungeon experience. It’s a first step at least:
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=395052
I love the EQ2 devs!
…the weekend ended and the exp gain was dropped again!
And I didn’t get a dungeon group all weekend! Granted I was away or had company through most of it, so couldn’t really play. That said, those lucky guildies who are a little higher level and are getting CoA (not sure what that stands for, Crypt of Agony I believe) and Maiden groups are reporting excellent loot and experience. With luck, I should ding 75 tonight, and be able to start getting some of these groups.